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Septrin vs Baytril, chest infections

I've a serious chest infection going round my cage at the minute. It's so distressing to hear. My little white fuzzy Olive is very unwell, she is acting so off. She is slow and uninterested and I'm petrified she is going to pop her little clogs before her time. When Im sat a good 6 feet away from the cage I can hear her chattering and squeaking. 

Anyway, the vet gave me a big bottle of Septrin to treat the whole cage, and this was a vet i'd never seen before. Most of the time they give me Baytril, and from this forum and elsewhere i've heard and experienced the wonders of Baytril, one week on it and most infections i've seen before have cleared up. 

So my little ones have been on Septrin (treating the water bottles) for about a week now and i'm so worried it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Does anybody have past experiences with this antibiotic and what would the consensus be about it compared to Baytril? They've already been on the Septrin, could I ask to switch to Baytril if it doesn't do much else? 


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Comments

  • AnnBAnnB Mouse
    Posts: 962
    I've never been prescribed Septrin for anything so I can't help much I'm afraid. My vet once prescribed Veraflox for a really stubborn respiratory infection in one of my mice when Baytril wasn't having any effect and if your mice have been on the Septrin for a week with no improvement I would definitely go back to the vet.
  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    edited September 2015 Posts: 1,228

    Hi Baggy. I remember being prescribed a Septrin based antibiotic but it was a long time ago. I would need to update myself and go and google! I always say that Baytril given at LEAST twice a day (or in the drinking water) is a better choice. It`s a broad spectrum drug while I `think` Septrin is more for urinary tract issues. As I say, it`s been a long time since I had any. The vet obviously prescribed this over Baytril for reasons only s/he knows. Maybe because it has a nicer taste? Who knows. But after seven days I would have wanted to see some improvement in the mice`s symptoms, but even with Baytril, a drop here and there does nothing. I found it worked far better by dosing it twice a day on a tiny piece of food (you could use coconut paste, peanut butter) or anything yummy the mice enjoy. x


    Edited to add: I just posted and remembered the name of the drug I was given Duphamox Drops. Cant even remember if these are Septrin or not, will need to go and find out! x

  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228

    Found this: A vet replying to someone who is using Septrin and wants to go back to baytril for her rats. This is the vets reply:



    answer.JPG
    761 x 518 - 103K
  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228
    Drats....it won`t enlarge! ~X(  How can this article be enlarged for Baggy to read it please? x
  • Posts: 529
    I've heard good things about septrin (including for resp infections) but if you've used it for a week with no improvements I definetly agree its time to go back to the vets. Hopefully they'll be able to try something else to get the girls better for you. I've never tried septrin myself but have used baytril a lot and its normally pretty good. The Nuts resp issues did end up resistant to baytril but we got the last flare-up sorted in the end (just had to use tylan instead and stay on it for ages before they were safe to stop it, things got to the point where we and the vet wondered if they'd ever be able to stop taking it).
    If one med doesn't work/stops working its definetly worth going back and trying to get another instead. I hope you can get your girls better soon, I hate stubborn mouse resp issues...
    Currently one of two pet-humans of some hamsters (syrian, roborovski, chinese and russian hybrid), mice, mongolian gerbils and a duprasi :)
  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    Thank you everyone, I'm going to take the time to medicate each of them by hand individually so I know they each get a correct dose. It will be hard and I may have to smear paste over a few of them but if it gets rid of the infection its worth it! 

    Also I'd love to see that letter from the vets racing mouse, if you click "insert" then it goes into the post full sized so that might work? 
  • zany_toonzany_toon Mouse
    Posts: 631
    April, I can't seem to sort your image with my mod settings, but if you message me a link I will sort it out for you.

    Georgia, I've not had any experience using septrin, but kallan our former forum vet has prescribed me loads of others over the years. The one I had the most success with was called antirobe (a.k.a. Clinamycin or clindamycin.) we discovered that we could use it with baytril. Whatever way these two drugs seem to work together has helped pull more than a couple of my mice back from what we thought was a point of no return. The issue with it is that it is a tablet...and the smallest tablet kallan can get is 150mg :-O The mice are to get less than half a milligram if I remember correctly, so it means that I get prescribed from the vets the exact amount of "The smallest amount possible that you can get after crushing it and dividing it as many times as possible!!" One tablet should provide most doses a mouse could ever possible need.

    (I've also messaged you Georgia about something else, I didn't want to post about it until I've spoken to you.)
  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    Ok 

    This chest infection WILL NOT GO. 

    It's stressing me out to the max now. I don't know what I can do. I've tried everything. I've separated the ones who had it bad for two weeks and had them on prednisolone and another antibiotic called something else...Im so so stressed out that it won't go and I have no idea what to do. Now one of my others is squeaking loudly who didn't have it to begin with. It's a nightmare. 

    I've been to the vet so many times, spent a small fortune already on all the medication and vet charges. They seem to think it's easy to squirt medicine into a mouse's mouth. Most of mine hate the taste of the antibiotic and even if it is supposedly tasteless they refuse it mixed with peanut butter and malt paste. 

    I hate for this to be a moaning post but I'm losing it with the chest infection from hell!

     Help! 


    :( :((
  • AnnBAnnB Mouse
    Posts: 962

    Sometimes, even when a mouse willingly takes medication, it still isn't possible to rid them of the dreaded respiratory infection. I think I'd be inclined to continue offering the meds but not worry about causing yourself or the mouse too much stress when there may be no cure anyway.

    Have you tried dropping liquid meds onto the mouse's back either with or without a dollop of malt paste/peanut butter? The mouse will feel compelled to wash itself, ingesting the meds at the same time.

  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    edited October 2015 Posts: 1,228

    End of the day Baggy, I would dose Baytril in their drinking bottles and keep them on it for a long as it takes. That way they will ALL have to drink it. Baytril doesn`t taste nice. I had a taste once and it felt warm/burning? on my tongue, then I rinsed my mouth right away!


    vets don`t normally like adding it to water due to the dilution, but in a 60ml mouse bottle, you can dose it daily and keep a watch on their drinking. They don`t tend to taste the Baytril when it`s diluted like this, but given homeopathic remedies are way more dilute and people swear by them, I would think an proper antibiotic would work better! That`s my theory anyway.

    Respiratory infections, breathing noises and constant therapy can do your head in, I know. Especially when you have more than one mouse to treat. My logic is, put it in their water at the dose the vet thinks would be the best therapeutic-wise and just stick with it. Just say to the vet your at your wits end with oral dosing and not getting any results and you feel that dosing the water would help to blanket treat all the mice over a month or longer if suggested. Some rats require life long treatment for mycoplasma infections as they can be a bugger to shift. I know, I`ve been there. x

  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    Thanks guys, I will see if I can get some Baytril then and does the bottle. 

    I actually was smearing them in malt paste mixed with antibiotic! They looked at me so angrily after that but I know at least they were ingesting it! After two weeks (I put the antibiotic in the water in a separate cage) they seemed better so I reintroduced them to the big cage. Unfortunately they seem to have gotten worse again and all that effort with the antibiotics was pointless! 

    My vet doesn't seem to believe me when I say the infection isn't going and I have to take poor little Mini mouse back to the vet every time where she is scared out of her wits. She never ever pees on me when she is out at home, but she wet herself at the vet. Poor little Mini. 

    As for other homeopathic remedies...? I've been giving Dr Squiggles and plenty of fresh veg. 

    :)
  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228

    I think it`s irresponsible for vets to ask that a mouse/mice be brought back time and time again if they have been seen the once and found to have a respiratory issue going on. I suppose they have to follow rules but I feel long term treatment for on going breathing issues is better than starting and stopping a drug or switching it all the time. It can`t be doing their body function much good. Antibiotics kill the gut flora (good and bad) so short term kicks don`t always work. It possibly unbalances the gut flora and causes side effects that we won`t see. Some antibiotics can make us feel sick for example, so I can`t imagine what a wee mouse feels like when it can`t be physically sick. Raised temperature, pains in the stomach etc....

    I would get the Baytril dosage for a drinking bottle/s either 60ml or 100ml and administer it like that for a few weeks baggy and see how they go. Some may fair well while others won`t show improvement, but the ones who seem unstable could possibly benefit from an oral dose during the day as well as taking some in through the bottle. You just need to watch that they are all happy to drink the dosed water okay. x

  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    Yes it's rather annoying having to take her to the vets, especially when she hates being manhandled by other people. It's the best I can do but hold my tongue when somebody tries to pick her up roughly or poke her about.  :((

    I have since insisted on holding her myself when they listen to her breathing through the huge stethoscope. 

    With regards to the gut bacteria thing...is there anything I could supplement their diet with to help this? Kind of like the way we have yoghurts and stuff that are good for tummy bacteria? 

    I think I will change vets if it doesn't work out this time and/or they refuse Baytril and stick her on something else altogether. Maybe find a vet that has more experience with small rodents....the only experience my vet has, lovely though they may be, is me! 
  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228

    I`ve heard of a pro biotic powder sold in Pets At Home but it might be a water soluble one and if Baytril is also in the water, I would think this might contradict things. Mice do well on a variety of foods, seeds, chopped nuts, millets, grains so I`m not too sure if adding a supplement in the form of a pro biotic or similar would be beneficial. I suppose you could run that past the vet and say while they are on antibiotic treatment, would they suggest this or you could suggest the pro biotic powder and see what they say? One thing I would say is, if these products have a taste, it can sometimes put mice off drinking. I remember adding some to my single male`s water and he hated it! So it was binned. But I can`t remember what it was I bought but it was many years ago.

    How many mice would you be treating Baggy? x

  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    So I went to the vets today, and was greeted with a "this has been going on so long...to be honest I have no specialty with rodents....I can refer you?" 

    But with her not really knowing what to do or say about my little ones, she gave me a big bottle of Baytril just as i'd asked. Though she didn't say much about dosing :S

    I have a 2.5ml solution which says it should be diluted 1ml in 250ml of water. The vet just said to give that. Before I do this....does this sound right to everyone here? I was going to 

    1. Dilute it up to 250ml. 

    2. Take out 8 x 5ml = 40ml and give in their bottle because there are 8 of them and they drink 5ml a day.

    If this doesn't work I will have to travel quite far to get to the exotic vet specialist. And even then i'm not sure what they could do that I haven't already had done! 

    Im even starting to the think it's the house. Damp? Fungal spores? Mould somewhere I can't tell but they are affected by?? Is my house too cold? Too warm? 

    As you can tell I'm going crazy. 
    :-O

    But this is another big wonderful side to this forum. So much love, knowledge and support that I basically went into the vets saying "well my forum says this....." and the vet nodded and did as I asked.  
    X(
  • AnnBAnnB Mouse
    Posts: 962

    Haha, you've already managed to confuse me (not difficult when it comes to numbers). Do you mean that you have the 2.5% solution? If so, that's the same one I have. I must admit I've always been a fan of getting meds directly into the mouse where possible rather than relying on them drinking a sufficient amount but you don't have to make up the whole 250ml in one go, if you have a syringe that measures smaller than 1ml you could make up 125ml of water with 0.5ml Baytril or halve it again to make a smaller quantity each day.

    I've noticed that when the temperature outside starts to drop, that's when my mice tend to get the sniffles.  

  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    Yes it was the 2.5% solution Ann! So...Ok....

    ....for people who use Baytril a lot, is this going to be an adequate dosage for 8 mice? I was putting 8 x a single mouse dosage in their drinking water (and only the amount they drink) so I could guarantee they were getting it. Im sure that seems too small a dose? 


  • zany_toonzany_toon Mouse
    Posts: 631
    You aren't dosing the water to treat for 8 mice Georgia, you just want to make it up to a safe dilution that any of the mice can drink :) If you put in 8 times the dose for one mouse, then it means that each drop a mouse takes will have 8 times the treatment for them - which is more likely to stop them drinking as the baytril will taste really strong. (Not sure I explained that well - the more baytril in it the more every mouse will get, whereas if you make a "stock" of baytril in the water using a set dose (which is more than any mouse's normal daily amount) then they will still get plenty.)

    If it helps, kallan always prescribes me 0.5ml of the 2.5% concentration in 75ml of water regardless of the number of mice in one cage that I am treating. Whenever I see any of the other vets at the surgery I am instructed to do what she says as she's the one who worked it all out!! Kallan worked this out as being a level of baytil that mice can have safely and is helpful to them and if they drink it all quickly because there are more mice in the cage you just make more frequent batches of baytril water. Bear in mind though that it can start to turn quickly, so you might be looking at either dosing every day or dosing every two days at most (otherwise it can start to develop bacteria and mould in the water as they have something to "latch onto" and feed on.) When I make mine up for the mice I use a small amount of hot water (preferably water that's been boiled and cooling down) and add the baytril to this, give it a good mix then add cool water to make the bottle full - baytril doesn't disperse/dissolve well in water so the hot water helps mix it through better. If you are concerned over your mice not drinking it you can also add a small amount of flavoured juice to it - mine loved to get a small amount of blackcurrant juice (I used Ribena, anything berry like, safe for mice and concentated works though) mixed in and I've had no issues with anyone not drinking their baytril (not unless they have been too far gone :( )

    Something worth bearing in mind is that severe infections can cause lung scarring that will sound just like the chest infection even after it's long gone. This was the problem I had with Houdini - he'd had a really severe RI as a youngster and always sounded wheezy. As a precaution he was kept on baytril as the scarring can make them more prone to picking up a chest infection later. Didn't hurt him and if anything it seemed to help him live his very long life :) He did develop an RI on and off, but it was noticeable as the wheezing become worse and he visibly started to look different, so if your mice are looking and acting as normal without the baytril it may be that they have scarring.

    If you are wanting to supplement things to help gut flora, there are a few options. You can go for probiotic powders like at P@H or the Dr Squiggles stuff. The other options are a tiny amount of probiotic drinks everyday (mine love the strawberry ones and will actually drink it from the syringe!) or you can use homeopathic remedies that boost the immune system and body as a whole. Echinacea and pau d'arco are good all round ones that you only need a few spots of in their water. The issue is that I don't know if they could affect the efficacy of the baytril and prevent it from helping.

    I'm sorry that you are having this problem with your mice :( I really hope that they improve.

    Did your vet even discuss antirobe/clinacin/clinamycin/clindamycin with you as being something you could use? Kallan and I have used this a lot for mice alongside baytril when we've tried everything else and it has helped quite a few of them.

    (I Should probably point out as a mod that what I've said is in no way to be taken as a replacement for vet advice. The above information was given to me by my own vet and is what i go by but each person should consult their own vet for advice on treatment options.)
  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228

    Good practical advice from Ann and Roz there. I can only add what I wrote down a while back and it`s similar to Roz`s Baytril dose of 2.5% Baytril solution.

    It`s 0.5ml Baytril into 75ml water bottle daily. Use a 1ml syringe to measure the Baytril. x

  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    So, on my millionth visit to the vet the other day she told me i'd be coming to see her about this chest infection since JULY. 

    Not very good. 

    But it seems to be nearly cleared up in all but one, MJ, who seems to have gotten much worse. I took a video of her breathing so if I can attach it I will. 

    What I need to know urgently is...

    can I separate her alone?

    The others all seem to be recovering and nearly getting better, but MJ is very VERY unwell. I've separated her right now, I don't want her passing this bad strain back and forth again, but I am obviously concerned about keeping her alone for the duration of her steroid treatment and synulox antibiotics. 

    What do you all think? Should I put someone with her? Will she be ok on her own for ten days? And if not, who should I put with her, one of the strong ones who didn't pick up a chest infection or one of the little ones who already caught it? 

    Thanks all 


    xxxxx
  • AnnBAnnB Mouse
    Posts: 962
    That's such good news that most of the mice are recovering. I don't think that separating MJ will make any difference if they've all been together up until now, so unless she's so weak she's being trampled on by the others or not able to get to the food I would just leave them all together.
  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228

    Hi Baggy. I have to agree that separating her could cause her undue stress from separation anxiety. The mice are not barrier maintained, meaning, they have all been in contact with this anyway, so in my view, I would let her stay with the girls and f she`s going to get better, she will. If not, then you won`t be any better off removing her as they have all had this and while they seem better, mycoplasmal bacteria, which are usually the causative agent in mouse respiratory issues, are never totally killed as they lack a cellular wall. So antibiotic treatment merely supresses symptoms. It can rear it`s ugly head from time to time and some mice have to be on these drugs all of their lives, or on and off when they become symptomatic. x

  • zany_toonzany_toon Mouse
    Posts: 631
    I have to agree with Ann and April, Georgia - separating her now may not make much of a difference. They have all been exposed to the strain that she has by now and separating her will likely make her worse due to her being stressed (it might also stress the other girls out and make their RIs worse too!) Has MJ improved at all being on steroids and synolux?
  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    Ok I feel much better about her being with the others now, Its nice to have reassurance of what to do! My vet has not been much help to be honest!  @-)

    This is driving me up the wall but I am positive I'm doing all I can for my babies. MJ has definitely improved in just two days of being on the prednisolone. 

    Thanks to everyone for your constant help and advice here. 

    Here is a video I quickly took on my phone (whilst cleaning them all out so do excuse the horrific mess) of MJ clucking. 




  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    And Roz I wanted to say how WONDERFUL I thought all your pictures were. They really truly made my day! I am just awful at texting back, though that is no excuse!  :\"> :x :x :x
  • zany_toonzany_toon Mouse
    Posts: 631
    I'm glad you enjoyed the photos :D Everyone is doing really well :)

    MJ actually looks really good despite the clucking noises :) Are they sure there is no lung scarring? It might explain in part why she is struggling to get rid of the clucking noise. That's how Houdini sounded almost all the time, but it eased off when he was sleeping.

    And you are definitely doing all you can for your meeces :)
  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228
    The noises are very fast and in relation to her breathing `in and out`. I would keep the Baytril going IF you found it was helpful. Prednisolone is a steroid so they can be dodgy long term. Although steroids can work very well and act fast. Did the vet advise how long to keep MJ on pred? x
  • BaggyMousersBaggyMousers Mouse
    Posts: 215
    I've been given Synulox (a penicillin based antibiotic) and Pred and been told that ten days of twice a day should clear it up and the red should help her breathe a little easier. So far it definitely has made a difference. And everybody else was on Baytril, but finished their course so I shall leave them at that and hope for the best now! MJ is very very mad at me because i've been smearing her in antibiotic malt paste to get her to eat it when she does a refusal.  :-/




  • racingmouseracingmouse Mouse
    Posts: 1,228

    I know, it`s never easy getting these medications into them without resorting to bribery! But when needs must and all that...

    I would generally go with what your vet has suggested Baggy and get straight back on them if any occurrence happens and get on top of it before it has time to blink! x

  • zany_toonzany_toon Mouse
    Posts: 631
    :P Ooops, I bet that smearing her in malt paste makes you very popular :P It's all worth it though if she gets better :)
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